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Author Topic: Baseball Threaad (especially from the time of our youth)  (Read 16122 times)
Robb_K
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« Reply #270 on: April 22, 2017, 07:26:58 PM »

Speaking of the Angels, maybe someone with an LA background can clear this up.

Obviously, with the Dodgers arrival from Brooklyn, the two PCL teams (LA and Hollywood) were no longer viable to operate. One moved to Salt Lake City, the other to Spokane.

O'Malley and Phil Wrigley apparently sorted out the LA Angels "rights" situation (I guess the stadium and land it sat on).  Apparently, nothing similar happened with Hollywood. So, my understanding is that although the team was sold and moved, the failure of O'Malley to take some final action with Hollywood eventually opened the door to the Angels American League expansion team a couple years later.

Didn't really make sense to me. Was was written as if O'Malley had screwed up somehow. His only "regret" about the move.
"The failure of O'Malley to take some final action with Hollywood eventually opened the door to the Angels American League expansion team a couple years later."  This also makes no sense to me.  Neither Wrigley Field, nor Gilmore Field were up to Major League standards.  And Major league franchises moving to minor league cities didn't have to buy out the minor league rights, as far as I know.  Did O'Malley give money to The L.A. Angels for buying their area rights, but NOT buy the rights from The Hollywood Stars.  So, The Hollywood Stars owners, after moving to another state, kept their minor league rights, and later sold them to The AL when they proposed expansion???  And, if O'Malley had bought Hollywood's rights, too, he could have denied The AL the opportunity to expand into The L.A. Area?  That makes no sense at all.  A metropolitan area (3rd largest in USA couldn't have 2 teams because minor league area rights weren't bought out???  A minor league owner could hold a giant metropolitan area (City) hostage, denying them a chance to have a second major league baseball team?
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #271 on: April 22, 2017, 08:35:58 PM »

I was  in LI  in 58.   Gilmore Field  became  CBS television  City  or some such thing--Beverly/Fairfax.

Dont think  he screwed up--NY and  Chi  still have  2 teams. In  58  Philly  did  too,  and the  Browns &  Braves  had recently left   Boston  & StL.

Think  it was always  planned  that Angels would  be near Disneyland.  Took until  66. 

The Dodgers and Angel  fans so different.   LA fans  drunks, fite etc. Killed a couple fans.(Nearly)

Angel  fans like  they  are in church.

IMO, O'malley  is the only  guy  who could have gotten away  with  playing in the joke of Coliseum  for 4 yrs.
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JoeC
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« Reply #272 on: April 22, 2017, 08:39:28 PM »

Found the book I'm recalling. Sorta interesting but still baffling to me.

Paraphrasing and quoting from Peter Golenbock's book, "Bums" :

Before moving the Dodgers to LA, O'Malley had to do two things -- (1) he had to buy the rights to the LA area (then owned by the Chicago Cubs who had a PCL team there), and (2) he had to get another owner to move West with him (for travel/rivalry purposes).

(Apparently) in the mid-50s the Cubs held their Spring training on Catalina Island and one Spring the grounds were not in shape. Phil Wrigley vowed he would not being the team back there. He called LA "a bush town" and swore he was done with the place as soon as he could rid himself of his PCL franchise.

O'Malley heard about this and "conned" Wrigley into taking -- in a straight swap -- the Dodgers Ft. Worth franchise in the Texas League for the Angels. O'M had bought Ft. Worth in 1947 for $75,000 and basically got (Wrigley Field) and the square city block in LA it sat on in return.

"O'M only made one mistake. To get LA all to himself, he should have also bought the Hollywood Stars franchise, which the California Angels ultimately bought. But O'M could not have been that farsighted. He wasn't thinking of competition in the LA market, he had real concerns that the Dodgers would succeed themselves."

That ends the content from the book.

I still don't get it. If the Stars were sold and moved prior to 1958, what "rights" remained in Hollywood. Gilmore Field? Other than that .... what did the expansion Angels "buy"?  Also, obviously, MLB teams did "own" territories that did not have MLB teams. In this case, the Cubs owned LA, the NY Giants "owned" the Twin Cities, etc. More recently, when the Montreal Expos became the Washington Nationals, the Baltimore Orioles owner "got paid" as the O's "owned" the Washington/Northern VA "territory."



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doctordoowop
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« Reply #273 on: April 22, 2017, 10:11:54 PM »

Not 50s Joe--20s.

LA  was  bush in the late 60s--much worse in 50s.    Grin Grin Grin Grin

If O'Malley    owned  Wrigley Field, why did he let  Angels play  there?  (61)

Then they rented Dodger St  and  called it Chavez Ravine.

Oh now I recall-OM  traded Wrigley  To  city  of LA  for Chavez  Ravine  in  58-59?   Then LA  rented it to Angels (&HR  DERBY)   .Later--early 60s  62-63--tore  down--now  park.  -Before I lived here.

Robb prob knows.
Of course  his drunk buddy Horace  was in SF.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #274 on: April 23, 2017, 01:34:33 AM »

Not 50s Joe--20s.

LA  was  bush in the late 60s--much worse in 50s.    Grin Grin Grin Grin

If O'Malley    owned  Wrigley Field, why did he let  Angels play  there?  (61)

Then they rented Dodger St  and  called it Chavez Ravine.

Oh now I recall-OM  traded Wrigley  To  city  of LA  for Chavez  Ravine  in  58-59?   Then LA  rented it to Angels (&HR  DERBY)   .Later--early 60s  62-63--tore  down--now  park.  -Before I lived here.

Robb prob knows.
Of course  his drunk buddy Horace  was in SF.


I've never drunk with horace Stoneham!  I've never even met the man!   Grin
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JoeC
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« Reply #275 on: April 23, 2017, 09:07:00 AM »

Not 50s Joe--20s.

LA  was  bush in the late 60s--much worse in 50s.    Grin Grin Grin Grin

If O'Malley    owned  Wrigley Field, why did he let  Angels play  there?  (61)

Then they rented Dodger St  and  called it Chavez Ravine.

Oh now I recall-OM  traded Wrigley  To  city  of LA  for Chavez  Ravine  in  58-59?   Then LA  rented it to Angels (&HR  DERBY)   .Later--early 60s  62-63--tore  down--now  park.  -Before I lived here.

Robb prob knows.
Of course  his drunk buddy Horace  was in SF.

Cubs trained on Catalina 1921-41, took a break during WWII, then returned from 1946-51. So, 1951 Spring Training was apparently what made Wrigley say what he did. After '51, they trained in Long Beach for awhile before settling in to Mesa, Az.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #276 on: April 23, 2017, 12:32:33 PM »

In '58, Philly had one MLB team not two. A's off to KC about 3-4 years prior to '58 -"official" farm team of the NY Yankees.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #277 on: April 23, 2017, 12:59:02 PM »

In '58, Philly had one MLB team not two. A's off to KC about 3-4 years prior to '58 -"official" farm team of the NY Yankees.

The Braves moved from Boston to Milwaukee just before the 1953 season.  The Brownies moved from St. Louis to Baltimore after 1953, for the 1954 season.  The A's moved after the 1954 season.  Their first year in K.C. was 1955.  Yes, their owing of millions of dollars to purchase the major league area rights from The Yankees, whose main AAA farm team had been there, chained The K.C. Athletics to The Yankees, in a farm club relationship, as they were beholden to them, in order to erase that debt.  Each one-sided trade (in The yanks' Favour) of new great talent that The Yankees coveted involved nominal additional cash (forgiving portions of that debt).  These trade kept the talent level of The A's players so low that even after the debt was repaid, The A's still acted as The Yank's farm club, trading of their best talented prospects for quantity of decent players, to better fill out their roster.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #278 on: April 23, 2017, 02:18:23 PM »

But--my fave 1st  baseman Vic Power (I know, wrong color)  went  to KC  from Yanks.

But 99.9%  of deals  were  good for NY.

Thanx for  correction on A's.   Why is,or was ,their logo a white elephant?   I do  not know the answer.
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JoeC
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« Reply #279 on: April 23, 2017, 02:45:25 PM »

Were the Milwaukee Braves the first major league team to have a bona fide parking lot for hundreds of cars? All teams had some limited parking but the Braves attendance explosion (much of it attributed to ease of parking) on moving to Milwaukee really opened a lot of owners' eyes.

Interesting that the current trend is to build stadium back in "downtowns" where parking is again limited.
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JoeC
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« Reply #280 on: April 23, 2017, 02:49:30 PM »

But--my fave 1st  baseman Vic Power (I know, wrong color)  went  to KC  from Yanks.

But 99.9%  of deals  were  good for NY.

Thanx for  correction on A's.   Why is,or was ,their logo a white elephant?   I do  not know the answer.

Who'd NYY get from KC? Off top of my head: Hector Lopez, Clete Boyer, Suitcase Simpson, Roger Maris, Bobby Shantz.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #281 on: April 23, 2017, 03:00:22 PM »

Bob Cerv comes  to  mind
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #282 on: April 23, 2017, 03:07:58 PM »

Found there's  a  book about  this.

Checking --found  Terry, and Slaughter  came back  to Yanks, plus Ditmar.

They also  dumped a  lot of over the hill   guys--Lumpe, Larsen etc.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #283 on: April 23, 2017, 03:30:26 PM »

But--my fave 1st  baseman Vic Power (I know, wrong color)  went  to KC  from Yanks.

But 99.9%  of deals  were  good for NY.

Thanx for  correction on A's.   Why is,or was ,their logo a white elephant?   I do  not know the answer.

Who'd NYY get from KC? Off top of my head: Hector Lopez, Clete Boyer, Suitcase Simpson, Roger Maris, Bobby Shantz.
The Yanks also got Ryne Duren, Ralph Terry, Bob Cerv, Art Ditmar, and others.

The A's were still in Philadelphia for a year and a half (1953) when they received Vic Power (and several others) from The Yanks, for aging 1st baseman, slugger, Eddie Robinson.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #284 on: April 23, 2017, 04:19:34 PM »

Power never played for the parent Yankees (in the regular season/post-season at least).

As for A's traded to Yanks during the "farm" years, are we need forgetting the immortal Kent Hadley (rare pink '60 baseball card) and Joe DeMaestri (semi-rare light yellow '60 baseball card bottom)?

Don't laugh, De Maestri got a key hit as PH in the Yank's memorable come from behind victory in my first in-person game in 1960. Ditmar had a double in the rally too! I recall he was considered a good-hitting pitcher.

What about  Zeke Bella (reverse flow from NY to KC)?   
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JoeC
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« Reply #285 on: April 23, 2017, 04:22:12 PM »

Bob Cerv comes  to  mind

Thought he went the other way but ... maybe he came to NY from KC, then returned later in his career.
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JoeC
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« Reply #286 on: April 23, 2017, 04:23:11 PM »

Found there's  a  book about  this.

Checking --found  Terry, and Slaughter  came back  to Yanks, plus Ditmar.

They also  dumped a  lot of over the hill   guys--Lumpe, Larsen etc.

Plus, Billy Martin was exiled there after the Copa incident, right?
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #287 on: April 23, 2017, 04:33:23 PM »

Along  with Bauer and?   3rd Copa  fiter? Forget.  Joe Collins?

I  have all  Powers cards.Never  seen  a  Phila A  card-- --too late in yr.  I know  never played for Yanks.  Like Roberto  never for Dodgers -but they  lost him.

Kent Hadley  had a  nice stroke--i n   the days when u could watch BP--hit a lot into  Right field stands.

20  yrs ago today saw Tatis  hit 2  GS  in one inning off Park. Tough to  beat that. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Robb_K
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« Reply #288 on: April 23, 2017, 05:20:17 PM »

Bob Cerv comes  to  mind

Thought he went the other way but ... maybe he came to NY from KC, then returned later in his career.
Cerv went back and forth, twice.  he Yanks asked for players to be returned to them when they needed them.  Notice there were no trades of any consequence between The Yankees and KC A's after 1960.  So, I think The A's had paid their debt to The Yankees some time during 1960.   Their owners were not masochists, nor secretly on The Yankee payroll.  They sold their team's soul, so they could operate a major league team in that city.  Without The Yankees "selling" them the major league area rights, AND loaning them a bunch of money, they couldn't have operated a franchise there.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #289 on: April 23, 2017, 06:03:11 PM »

I looked it up.  2 weeks later   Yanks traded  Martin,Terry, Woodie  Held(he was good), and  Bob Martyn(?)    for  Duren, Jim Pisoni, and Simpson.  Guess  Bauer went later.  Bauer BTW had a great  57  series  against the Braves--so not sure wen he went to KC.

Ford,Mantle, Kucks, and Yogi   were at the Copa too.  were  fined  $1000 each. Cry Cry Cry
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #290 on: April 23, 2017, 06:04:46 PM »

Should be 58 series.
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JoeC
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« Reply #291 on: April 23, 2017, 07:08:03 PM »

Still the only WS game I've ever seen in person is Game 2 of the 1957 WS at Yankee Stadium. Burdette vs Shantz.  4-2 win for the Braves. HRs by Johnny Logan and Hank Bauer (both in the 3rd inning). First of 3 wins by Burdette in that Series.

Doubt I'll see another. Had just turned 14. Freshman in HS.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #292 on: April 23, 2017, 07:37:05 PM »

My  1st  was  game 3 --58--Larsen over  Rush 4-0.   Bauer  2 Hrs.

My next  was 2nd  game  1988--nite after Gibson's  HR.  Hershiser  beat  (Forget)--6-0 or 6-1.
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JoeC
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« Reply #293 on: April 23, 2017, 07:53:51 PM »

My  1st  was  game 3 --58--Larsen over  Rush 4-0.   Bauer  2 Hrs.

My next  was 2nd  game  1988--nite after Gibson's  HR.  Hershiser  beat  (Forget)--6-0 or 6-1.

So you've seen twice as many WS games as me. And in two different ballparks.

I looked up the attendance at the '57 game I was at. It was roughly 65,500. Game 1 had drawn 69,000+. Yankee Stadium capacity in 1957 sat around 67,000. So, they let in an extra 2000 people for SRO for Game 1 and "my" game had 1500 empty seats. Game 6 and 7 at YS only drew 61,500 so there were 5500 empty seats for the final two games. Interesting! Guess the fans had become jaded.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #294 on: April 23, 2017, 11:04:56 PM »

I was in the bleachers in  58--about $5.  In 88 better seats  above Scully--about  $125  each.

Oh oh--Just remembered   also--1st game  of 2002  WS.  Figured  it could not be beaten only tied--Angels -SF--Giants won.Bonds HR  off Percival.

Dont ask what I paid--me and wife  20  rows back of  Giant dugout. 

Only Angel  series of course.  Many were  Like  69  Mets--half  team had career yrs.  & playoffs--beat Yanks.

Unknowns like Spezio, Gill etc etc.
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JoeC
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« Reply #295 on: April 24, 2017, 08:16:43 AM »

Had many chances to see Orioles in the WS since I've lived in Maryland since 1966 (when they swept LA, 4-0). They never (maybe I should say rarely) sold out WS games but ... wasn't an O's fan and Memorial Stadium was in the north central part of the city which wasn't easy to get to for people living south of town.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #296 on: April 24, 2017, 11:52:32 AM »

The 66 WS was the beginning of Dodger  collapse.  Stunk until  back to WS  in  74, 77,78,81.
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JoeC
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« Reply #297 on: April 24, 2017, 01:11:52 PM »

The 66 WS was the beginning of Dodger  collapse.  Stunk until  back to WS  in  74, 77,78,81.

Orioles were heavy underdogs in that 1966 WS. Dave McNally beat Drysdale 1-0 in Game 4 of the sweep on a Frank Robby HR. Willie Davis killed the Dodgers; went 1-16.

That was F Robinson's Triple Crown year. How crazy was it that Yaz did it again the very next year. What're the odds?  Robinson won the batting title at .316 but did have like 48HR and over 120 RBI. The pitchers were definitely starting to dominate, culminating in the 1968 season.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #298 on: April 24, 2017, 07:34:13 PM »

Dont  forget Willies errors  in CF.
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JoeC
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« Reply #299 on: April 24, 2017, 08:23:11 PM »

As I remember that 4th and deciding game of that '66 WS, I recall (because I was out in the Chesapeake Bay on a powerboat) that it was a Sunday afternoon. No more day games these days! That game musta started at 10:30 or 11 am PDT and have been over by 2 pm in LA.
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