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JoeC
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« Reply #150 on: December 24, 2017, 08:22:22 PM »

Speaking of surnames, is Backstrom in Swedish like Smith in English? Seem to be a lot of them. In hockey and elsewhere.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #151 on: December 24, 2017, 09:16:12 PM »

Speaking of surnames, is Backstrom in Swedish like Smith in English? Seem to be a lot of them. In hockey and elsewhere.
No.  Backstr?m is a reasonably common name, but not anywhere near as common as the "son of" names, such as Karlsson, Johansson, Eriksson, Svensson, Nilsson, Jakobsson, Persson(Pedersson), Olesson, Larsson, etc.  People in Scandinavia had no last names until after The Napoleonic Wars, starting in 1815.  It didn't become mandatory until the middle of the 1800s. Before then, people were addressed by 1st name and son of father's name.  In the mid 1800s, most of the Western European governments initiated laws to require all families to take a family name.  In Scandinavia, they just "froze" the current "Son name" currently being used by families.  In Hungary, the government assigned names to families. My great grandparents were assigned "Klein" (meaning "Little").  A few years later, they moved tothe Dutch part of Belgium, and later, to The Netherlands.  Luckily, "Klein" was a good Dutch name, as well.  Backstr?m means "stream behind".  Other "stream names, like Lindstr?m ("winding stream"), or Bergstr?m ("mountain or hill stream") or Dahlstr?m, are much more common.  Because most Swedes were farmers, names of landforms and the plantlife on them are next most common surnames after "son of" names.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #152 on: December 24, 2017, 09:19:06 PM »

Know u'll  like this.  The  big fire  in Cal  is called the  Thomas fire  B/C--it  started  right  near a small  Cath college-behind Magic Mountain--Thomas Aquinas  college.

None  of the TV  or  firemen   idiots could pronounce  Aquinas  so  "Thomas " it was.  i heard  "Akeenas,"  Aqua-noss etcetc.  

Don't all half brite folks know its--"Ah--kwi-ness?"   Dont have to be Catholic.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 09:22:17 PM by doctordoowop » Logged
Robb_K
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« Reply #153 on: December 24, 2017, 09:39:25 PM »

Know u'll  like this.  The  big fire  in Cal  is called the  Thomas fire  B/C--it  started  right  near a small  Cath college-behind Magic Mountain--Thomas Aquinas  college.

None  of the TV  or  firemen   idiots could pronounce  Aquinas  so  "Thomas " it was.  i heard  "Akeenas,"  Aqua-noss etcetc.  

Don't all half brite folks know its--"Ah--kwi-ness?"   Dont have to be Catholic.

I'm Jewish, and I knew how to pronounce it correctly.  There must be a Saint Thomas Aquinas high school or college in every big city in every country that has a reasonable amount of Catholics.
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JoeC
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« Reply #154 on: December 24, 2017, 10:59:23 PM »

That Scandanavian names post was very interesting Robb. Is it Iceland that uses the "son" and "dottir" ending to names? The male children get the father's first name + son, and the girl children get the father's first name + dottir tacked on? Is Iceland the only country that does that?
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Robb_K
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« Reply #155 on: December 24, 2017, 11:18:27 PM »

That Scandanavian names post was very interesting Robb. Is it Iceland that uses the "son" and "dottir" ending to names? The male children get the father's first name + son, and the girl children get the father's first name + dottir tacked on? Is Iceland the only country that does that?
Yes.  I've never heard of any Scandinavian family having "dottir" in it(only Icelanders), and I've worked in Denmark, Norway and Sweden for the past 30 years.  I'm not sure if The Faroe Islanders and Shetland Islanders follow The Icelandic or Scandinavian system.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #156 on: December 25, 2017, 02:55:47 AM »

Actually, as was the case for males in Sweden ("son" or "sson" used as the suffix to the father's first name for a male) or Denmark ("sen" or "ssen") or Norway (sometimes used "son" or "sson" and sometimes "sen" or "ssen"), dotter or dottir was commonly used as the suffix to the father's first name for females in Scandinavia until the mid to late 19th century. For example, my wife's grandfather's grandfather's wife was named Ulrika Lovisa Johannesdotter born in 1843 and died in 1928 in Sweden. Hundreds of my wife's known female ancestors were named in this fashion.

Jews were required to take surnames at various times: "Austrian Empire including (most of) Galicia and (all of) Bukovina (1787/1788), Silesia 1791, Russian Pale (12-9-1804, not enforced until 1835/1845), Russian Poland (1821/1822), West Galicia (1805 subsequent to its 1795 incorporation into Austria), France (7-20-1808), various German states: Frankfurt (1807), Baden (1809), Westphalia (1812), Prussia (1812), Bavaria (1813), Wuerttemberg (1828), Posen (1833), Saxony (1834)".  Up to this time, the vast majority of Jews living in Europe effectively used a naming system similar to that of Scandinavia - e.g. first name, son (or daughter) of father's first name.

Exceptions in both Scandinavia and among the Jewish people were those who were part of wealthy, rabbinic, or otherwise noteworthy families, who would carry what we think of today as more traditional family surnames. 

Iceland, as mentioned above, still uses the old Scandinavian naming convention (with some exceptions). In addition, first names are strictly regulated as well, and must be chosen from a relatively small list of approved names. Exceptions are permitted, but require a formal application and approval from the designated government authority (app. 50% approval per one source). In some cases, instead of using the father's name as the base of the child's surname, the mother's name is used. 
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Robb_K
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« Reply #157 on: December 25, 2017, 03:49:57 AM »

Actually, as was the case for males in Sweden ("son" or "sson" used as the suffix to the father's first name for a male) or Denmark ("sen" or "ssen") or Norway (sometimes used "son" or "sson" and sometimes "sen" or "ssen"), dotter or dottir was commonly used as the suffix to the father's first name for females in Scandinavia until the mid to late 19th century.

Jews were required to take surnames at various times: "Austrian Empire including (most of) Galicia and (all of) Bukovina (1787/1788), Silesia 1791, Russian Pale (12-9-1804, not enforced until 1835/1845), Russian Poland (1821/1822), West Galicia (1805 subsequent to its 1795 incorporation into Austria), France (7-20-1808), various German states: Frankfurt (1807), Baden (1809), Westphalia (1812), Prussia (1812), Bavaria (1813), Wuerttemberg (1828), Posen (1833), Saxony (1834)".  Up to this time, the vast majority of Jews living in Europe effectively used a naming system similar to that of Scandinavia - e.g. first name, son (or daughter) of father's first name.
My grandfather told me that his grandfather's family (who lived in Ruthenia-east of The Carpathian Mountains near Transylvania) got assigned their family name in 1857 by agents of The Hungarian government, from a list of Yiddish names that had been submitted by the head of The Hungarian Rabbinical Council. ArchDuke Franz Jozeph approved that The Jews got Yiddish names, because they were also German names, and German was 1 of the 2 official languages of Austria-Hungary. Luckily, Klein was also a Dutch name, which worked well when they moved to Flanders and Holland.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #158 on: December 25, 2017, 01:42:35 PM »

Robb,

Your ancestors were pretty fortunate with Klein, easy to pronounce, spell, not necessarily all that ethnic, etc.

According to my research:

"Surnames selected were generally derived by: 1. Adding a suffix to a paternal (or in some cases maternal) given name commonly used by a family or used by an esteemed family member (e.g. Mendelson, Abramowitz) 2. From a place name denoting the family origins or current residence at time of name adoption (e.g. Prager from Prague) 3. From the profession of a family member (e.g. Fleisher = butcher, Schneider = tailor, Holzman = timber dealer. 4. From the personal traits of the family member being named (e.g. Grossman = large man, Klein = small man) 5. From animal names (e.g. Berman from bear; Fuchs from fox). 6. From desirable items (e.g. Goldberg = gold mountain, Bloom = flower). 7. From other Hebrew or Yiddish-derived names (e.g. Cohen, Levy, Solomon). "     

Sometimes names thought  to be desirable could be had for a price. On the other hand, certain families who were disfavored by the naming authorities for one reason or another were sometimes assigned names with negative connotations.

Back in Scandinavia, my wife's mom's maiden name is Gunnarsson, but as of yet we've been unable to find Gunnar!
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Robb_K
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« Reply #159 on: December 25, 2017, 02:07:10 PM »

"Surnames selected were generally derived by: 1. Adding a suffix to a paternal (or in some cases maternal) given name used by a family or used by an esteemed family member (e.g. Mendelson, Abramowitz) 2. From a place name denoting the family origins or current residence at time of name adoption (e.g. Prager) 3. From the profession of a family member (e.g. Fleisher, Schneider, Holzman 4. From personal traits of the family member being named (e.g. Grossman, Klein) 5. From animal names (e.g. Berman; Fuchs). 6. From desirable items (e.g. Goldberg, Bloom). 7. From other Hebrew or Yiddish-derived names (e.g. Cohen, Levy, Solomon). "

My grandfather said that his grandfather told him that The Hungarian government agent went from house to house handing a paper to each family with their assigned family name.  In their town, the names were given randomly, one was Klein, the next Gross, next Schwartz, next Weiss, next Stein.  The nicer names, like Blumenfeld, Goldberg, Rosenblum, etc. had to be bought at the Amt (town hall).  Awful and degrading names were assigned to troublemakers and rich Jews, so that local administrators could extort large amounts of money from them, to buy a nice-sounding name.  In Scandinavia, the population was homogeneous in origin and culture, and the naming system had been the same for all, and their church birth records were complete.  So, they could all get names connected to their past. I have a Dutch friend whose family name means literally "filth house".  Perhaps her patriarchal ancestor at the time of the family name installation, was a horse stall sweeper? It seems that her family didn't have the money to buy a better name.  Interesting that they were Catholics, not Jews nor Gypsies.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #160 on: December 25, 2017, 02:12:41 PM »

Correct Robb. Dont need  to be Catholic.  Aquinas  was quite  influential centuries  ago.   NO--LA  does not have a Thomas  Aquinas  HS--just a nearby small college. 

All  those Christian  Oakies! Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Robb_K
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« Reply #161 on: December 25, 2017, 02:25:12 PM »

Correct Robb. Dont need  to be Catholic.  Aquinas  was quite  influential centuries  ago.   NO--LA  does not have a Thomas  Aquinas  HS--just a nearby small college. 
All  those Christian  Oakies! Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

I couldn't believe one didn't exist in a place as big as The L.A. Area, and I was right.  There's a St. Thomas Aquinas High School in Monterey Park, on Atlantic Blvd.  That's pretty darn close to L.A. City.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #162 on: December 26, 2017, 12:13:13 PM »


My grandfather said that his grandfather told him that The Hungarian government agent went from house to house handing a paper to each family with their assigned family name.  In their town, the names were given randomly, one was Klein, the next Gross, next Schwartz, next Weiss, next Stein.  The nicer names, like Blumenfeld, Goldberg, Rosenblum, etc. had to be bought at the Amt (town hall).  Awful and degrading names were assigned to troublemakers and rich Jews, so that local administrators could extort large amounts of money from them, to buy a nice-sounding name.  In Scandinavia, the population was homogeneous in origin and culture, and the naming system had been the same for all, and their church birth records were complete.  So, they could all get names connected to their past. I have a Dutch friend whose family name means literally "filth house".  Perhaps her patriarchal ancestor at the time of the family name installation, was a horse stall sweeper? It seems that her family didn't have the money to buy a better name.  Interesting that they were Catholics, not Jews nor Gypsies.
[/quote]

Robb,

Fascinating "first-hand" account. In my case, both grandfathers' names appear to have stemmed from the "professions" of their ancestors - neither particularly nice names nor particularly not-nice names. As for Sweden, in most cases church records with family member names, ages, occupations, etc., date back to the 17th century and are still intact. In fact, many/most have even been digitized. My wife's family has some strains that fit the standard Scandinavian naming conventions; other strains, from the aristocracy, however, carried/carry family names dating back many, many centuries.  
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #163 on: December 26, 2017, 02:24:17 PM »

Good work Robb.  Its  a  mile from LA.  But  must be small-never heard of it  --most  athletic  teams are  from  parochial  schools-- not  this one.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #164 on: December 26, 2017, 02:35:59 PM »

Robb-from website--K-8 grade.  So NOT  a HS. Grin Grin Grin
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Robb_K
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« Reply #165 on: December 26, 2017, 03:15:34 PM »

Robb-from website--K-8 grade.  So NOT  a HS. Grin Grin Grin

Well, we had one on The South Side of Chicago (72nd and Clyde), and there IS one in San Bernardino.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #166 on: December 26, 2017, 07:27:23 PM »

Agree completely Robb-  a person should  eable to  pronounce it Grin Grin Grin Grin
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #167 on: December 31, 2017, 03:45:37 PM »

Happy Felton  I prob watched this live  on WOR.

Great with  Jackie  &  Pee  Wee  Reese. Love  those  Italian  kids   & their  Bklyn accents. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

https://youtu.be/KsQuqhWhm8o
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JoeC
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« Reply #168 on: December 31, 2017, 08:28:32 PM »

Doc, maany thanks. Enjoyed that Happy Felton clip. He created and hosted that show. Ran for many years. Happy used to be in vaudeville (born in 1907). That was his background.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #169 on: December 31, 2017, 11:49:30 PM »

This MAY  be the  only preserved complete  Felton show--prob bec of  Jackie & Pee Wee.  Great!!

I have to  think that because of social  media,  &  cable &  satellite  TV,  that most  12  yr olds in Bklyn  have a more  "nationalized" accent in 2017.   Very cute,tho'.
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JoeC
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« Reply #170 on: January 01, 2018, 09:03:57 AM »

I really loved that innocence in baseball growing up. A couple local kids actually rubbing shoulders with stars like Robinson and Reese.

If you're making $15 million (or whatever Million a year), I can see how it would be laughable to participate in something like the Knothole Gang. It's just a different planet!

I mean Reese and Snider lived in Bay Ridge, in a "regular" house, not in a compound of millionaire's in some exclusive location. All but the very top stars sold suits or cars in the off-season.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #171 on: January 01, 2018, 12:02:42 PM »

I really loved that innocence in baseball growing up. A couple local kids actually rubbing shoulders with stars like Robinson and Reese.

If you're making $15 million (or whatever Million a year), I can see how it would be laughable to participate in something like the Knothole Gang. It's just a different planet!

I mean Reese and Snider lived in Bay Ridge, in a "regular" house, not in a compound of millionaire's in some exclusive location. All but the very top stars sold suits or cars in the off-season.
All the hockey players sold encyclopedias, or pots and pans or vacuum cleaners door-to-door, or went home to work on their parents' farms in the off season.

It seems to me that kids from the East Coast,New England, different parts of The South, and Midwest STILL have heavy regional accents (not quite as pronounced as back in the '40s and '50s, but still very recognisable.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #172 on: January 01, 2018, 12:48:13 PM »

Gil Hodges lived in a nice but modest home in Brooklyn. Roy Face as a house painter in the off-season.
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JoeC
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« Reply #173 on: January 01, 2018, 01:09:51 PM »

Mike, Think Furillo worked in some area of construction. An 8th grade dropout, he always had an inferiority complex about his lack of education. Part of the reason he had a rep as a standoffish guy who wasn't the most congenial guy in the clubhouse. Wonder if he was on with Felton? Don't recall.

Robb, Encyclopedia salesmen?? Door to door? Wow. So, if I lived in Chicago in the late 50s, maybe I coulda practiced my French if Pierre Pilote came calling?

Seriously, have there been French-speaking Quebec natives in the NHL who never learned English? I've read where if you did not know French, and played in, or coached, Montreal you better be a quick study to at least learn to passably speak the language. Read American Max Pacioretty was actually enrolled in French classes (not sure that was all his idea but, as Captain, apparently a necessity). Wonder how any Scandinavians or Eastern European players have language "problems." Actually, I read where getting a US drivers' license was Job #1 for foreign players on US teams.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #174 on: January 01, 2018, 03:07:51 PM »

Joe-he was on with Felton. But mostly  jackie,reese,  snider & campy. Jack said the players talked  about it.  Erskine told  me the players liked it & got as I recall $50.

Abrams was  mailman  in Levittown.

Says a lot that Compton's Duke  did   not want to move to LA--even before  he  saw  RF  wall.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #175 on: January 01, 2018, 04:22:15 PM »

Robb, Encyclopedia salesmen?? Door to door? Wow. So, if I lived in Chicago in the late 50s, maybe I coulda practiced my French if Pierre Pilote came calling?
Seriously, have there been French-speaking Quebec natives in the NHL who never learned English? I've read where if you did not know French, and played in, or coached, Montreal you better be a quick study to at least learn to passably speak the language. Read American Max Pacioretty was actually enrolled in French classes (not sure that was all his idea but, as Captain, apparently a necessity). Wonder how any Scandinavians or Eastern European players have language "problems." Actually, I read where getting a US drivers' license was Job #1 for foreign players on US teams.
There were lots of French speaking players on The Canadiens or who played in Quebec City or Ottawa, who never learned much English.  But, those who went to play in Toronto or in US cities generally had to learn some English.  Phil Goyette, Camille Henry, Rod Gilbert, Jean-Guy Talbot, Pierre Pilote, Noel Picard, Jacques Plante, and most of those who played in English speaking cities learned English fairly well, even though they still had very thick French accents.  Scandinavian players have never had a problem.  English is learned there from an early age.  They are always fluent already when coming to North America, even to play at the junior level.  Everyone under 80 years of age in Scandinavia speaks fluent English (and their grammar and spelling is, on the whole, better than the average American, from what I have seen).  Eastern Europeans DO have to take English courses when playing in USA and Canada (as one would have to do working in any foreign country).  When I worked in the Arab countries, I was always enrolled in Arabic language classes.  When I started living in Germany I took the German Immigrant language classes.
Off season encyclopedia salesmen and door to door sales jobs usually were taken in the players' home towns in Canada, rather than their "adopted" US city.
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JoeC
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« Reply #176 on: January 01, 2018, 05:25:50 PM »

Thanks Robb. I do recall Rocket Richard still struggling with English MANY years into his long career (early to mid-50s). And he was from urban Montreal. The Francophones from the outlying areas   ...
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #177 on: January 01, 2018, 11:46:43 PM »

Robb--agree  but  local  extreme accents like  Brooklyn  in 50s-60s   are long gone.

Wat surprised  me  & it still  exists--is that  Mex-Americans-born here--in ELA  often speak/spoke  English with a  distinct  accent.  Possibly because of being bi-lingual--but just because it was the  neighborhood --I wonder if that  exists in any other big  US cities.

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Robb_K
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« Reply #178 on: January 02, 2018, 12:23:38 AM »

Robb--agree  but  local  extreme accents like  Brooklyn  in 50s-60s   are long gone.
What surprised  me  & it still  exists--is that  Mex-Americans-born here--in ELA  often speak/spoke  English with a  distinct  accent.  Possibly because of being bi-lingual--but just because it was the  neighborhood --I wonder if that  exists in any other big  US cities.
I know that the heavy Brooklyn accents are now toned down somewhat, but I'd bet if I listened to current children from Brooklyn, Long Gisland, or Queens, I could tell they are from those places.  The kids from Chicago still sound like we did, and that can't be mistaken even for Peoria or Milwaukee.  The Latinos of Boyle Heights/East L.A. used to have their own accent.  But now almost all L.A. is populated by Latinos, with a lot coming from many different parts of Mexico, with totally different accents, plus lots from Nicaragua, El Salvador, Peru, Colombia, Chile, Guatemala, all with different accents.  And so, their accents are all mixed throughout the city.  But, I rarely hear the Spanish accent in their English, because most of them speak only Spanish. I had to learn Spanish, living in L.A. because I hardly met any English speakers.  Hablo Espa?ol Oaxaque?o, porque en mi barrio, la gente son ?ndios solamente del estado Oaxaca!   
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JoeC
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« Reply #179 on: January 02, 2018, 09:31:35 AM »

When my kids were going to school in England (Jr High and HS age), in no time they "adopted" the King's English as spoken in Gloucestershire. Slang and everything. School mates and the BBC taught them well. So well that after a year or two, many English folk on meeting them did not know they were Americans. Within a month of returning to the USA, all traces of their "Britishness" were gone. At least thev still know what words like toff, naff, chuffed, berk, bog, etc mean.

Wonder how many Boyle Hts kids, born here, talk one way in ELA and differently if they happened to be admitted to UCLA and are in class there? "Cheech" Marin (of Cheech & Chong) has a trace of ELA in his speech but nothing like the stereotypical Mexican-American "stoner" he played in his comedy roles.
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