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Author Topic: History Tidbits  (Read 978 times)
JoeC
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« on: July 29, 2017, 04:41:39 PM »

Courtesy of NBC, how the Dutch "lost" Manhattan.

"The Banda Islands (Spice Islands) were once at the heart of the world’s biggest and most important trade — in spices. A part of what was historically known as the Spice Islands and now Indonesia, they consist of 10 tiny specks in the vast Banda Sea and have a population of just 15,000.

On July 31, 1667, an extraordinary deal was struck: England officially swapped two of the small islands for a swampy Dutch colony once known as New Amsterdam — now New York. The rest, as they say, is history.

Back then, the Banda Islands had a monopoly on nutmeg. It was the only place it grew, and the spice was worth more by weight than gold. The Dutch — European pioneers in the business of colonization — wanted total control, and were willing to give up what was then a North American backwater to achieve it."
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 07:35:27 AM by JoeC » Logged
Robb_K
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2017, 06:41:24 PM »

But that wasn't the whole story.  In 1672, The Third War between The Netherlands and England broke out, and The Dutch armies again took over Nieuw Nederland (New Netherlands (which included Manhattan Island, as well as The Hudson River Valley, and had, in the 1650s to 1664, also included northern New Jersey, and southern New Jersey and most of Delaware, which had previously been the Swedish Colony of New Sweden. The Dutch now called this colony, "Nieuw Oranje".  By 1674, The English overran Surinaam (Dutch Guiana-on the north coast of South America. So, being that Nieuw Oranje/Nieuw Nederland was STILL not a profitable colony, but Surinaam was, The Dutch swapped Nieuw Oranje (New York) back to England in trade for the English troops to leave Surinaam.  So, New York city and state, as well as northern New Jersey, were traded TWICE by The Dutch for places today which are tropical backwaters. But, Napoleon traded the entire central third of USA (Louisiana purchase) for $3 million dollars in 1803, and King Louis XVI of France traded all of Canada for the return of half of a small Carribbean island (Hispaniola) (The Colony of Haiti) because it produced millions of Dollars worth of sugar each year, while Canada cost more to govern than it produced.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2017, 11:59:38 PM »

My humorous  cousin joked that   all the  exploration  was  because  the  European  food  tasted  so  bland-- actually  largely true.  But  had to  stay  south to take from Spice Islands plants to  Jamaica for example.  Breadfruit  shocked most Brits--to see bread growing on

 trees.

But   Manila has  a big statue to  pay tribute to  the chief who  killed  Magellan.(So  he never  returned to Spain).  Never  taught that in school.

Also,  Cook  was so infuriated  by a Hawaiian  for taking his  goat that he used for  milk  he  went ashore -- believe Maui--  & was killed.

You are  in big  trouble wen the natives  realize you are not God.
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JoeC
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 07:38:37 AM »

"The Spice."  Sounds a lot like the book/movie "Dune."
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Robb_K
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 08:50:27 AM »

My humorous  cousin joked that   all the  exploration  was  because  the  European  food  tasted  so  bland-- actually  largely true.  But  had to  stay  south to take from Spice Islands plants to  Jamaica for example.  Breadfruit  shocked most Brits--to see bread growing on

 trees.

But   Manila has  a big statue to  pay tribute to  the chief who  killed  Magellan.(So  he never  returned to Spain).  Never  taught that in school.

Also,  Cook  was so infuriated  by a Hawaiian  for taking his  goat that he used for  milk  he  went ashore -- believe Maui--  & was killed.

You are  in big  trouble wen the natives  realize you are not God.
I don't agree, having lived in Desert and tropical countries and, at times, without a refrigerator.  We were taught that spices were so very valuable (worth more than their weight in gold at times) because in those old times before refrigerators, meat festered and spoiled quickly.  I don't know how many of you have eaten spoiled meat (that hadn't quite spoiled enough to kill you or make you violently ill) or even spoiled vegetables, but they can taste quite terrible and disgusting.  Meat was a luxury mostly for the rich.  But, the common people needed enough protein to stay reasonably healthy.  So, they felt ANY meat (even spoiled) was a rare treat.  So, they were pretty much forced to eat spoiled meat if lucky enough to even have that opportunity.  It was pretty difficult to stomach (or even get through the mouth to the throat.  Spices helped mask the foul taste of the decaying food.  So, it was an extreme luxury.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 12:44:10 PM »

That was my  point --spices were  very  valuable  and needed  for  the food.  He was needling the  English  mainly for bland food.  Not  for  moldy food.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 02:19:34 PM »

That was my  point --spices were  very  valuable  and needed  for  the food.  He was needling the  English  mainly for bland food.  Not  for  moldy food.

Now I get it.  Yes, The Brits (especially The English), have really bland food.  thank goodness they have Chinese, Malay, Jamaican, Pakistani, Indian ,French, Greek, Ityalian, and other foreign restaurants there!  At least The Scots have haggis!   Cheesy
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 03:33:34 PM »

Scottish  food much better.  Desserts  and candy  (toffee)  quite good in England.  Most fare  still  mundane.
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Shandy
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 04:11:30 PM »

Nothing like Blood Pudding or Spotted Dick (a desert that has animal fat in it). Tongue
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
bklynmike101
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 04:50:06 PM »

Speaking of mergers & acquisitions, or cheap sales of a player to be named later, I shudder to think of the modern day geopolitical repercussions had Mr. Seward not committed his folly of 1867.   
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Shandy
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 04:53:27 PM »

Miike -  Smiley
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
JoeC
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2017, 05:41:56 PM »

Nothing like Blood Pudding or Spotted Dick (a desert that has animal fat in it). Tongue

"Toad In The Hole" (sausages in Yorkshire Pudding batter -- baked) is good too. Ate it often in the cafeteria at my place of business during my 3 years in Gloucestershire. Loved the Cauliflower & Cheese at the pubs. None of the Cheese Whiz stuff you get here in the US.
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DJ Big Jack
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2017, 10:15:06 PM »

Tikka Masala is so common in England that a lot of younger Brits think it's an English meal !
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Shandy
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2017, 12:34:16 AM »

Jack - They've colonized so many places you'd think they'd learn more about food, like not to boil it until it's gray, lol.
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
Robb_K
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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2017, 03:18:25 AM »

Speaking of mergers & acquisitions, or cheap sales of a player to be named later, I shudder to think of the modern day geopolitical repercussions had Mr. Seward not committed his folly of 1867.   
Yes, Imagine the situation during The Cold War, if The Russians were still all the way down The Alaskan, British Columbia and US West Coast, all the way to The Golden Gate Bridge. 

But, by 1867, The Russians were busy having troubles with The Ottomans and their subjugated Asian populations, and couldn't send enough soldiers to protect their American territories.  So, they thought they'd get some money for the places, rather than just lose it to The British and/or The Americans, anyway.  Same for Florida from The Spanish and Louisiana from The French.  Napoleon was fighting a war with The British, and would not have been able to keep enough soldiers in Louisiana to keep The Americans from encroaching there as they did later in Texas.  So, instead of losing the place to American infiltration, and a later provoked war, he took some money, which helped him fight his war against Britain, Prussia, Austria and Russia. So, we shouldn't think these were brilliant moves by James Monroe, Seward, or other individuals, but were more faites acomplis, where European rulers (French, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish and Danish) saw the writing on the wall that The Americans or British were going to infiltrate and later conquer their American territories.  Yes, even The Danish, who sold the last surviving portions of their Virgin islands Colony to USA in 1917, saw the writing on the wall that ALL the Caribbean Island colonies would be granted their independence within the following 50 years, decided to sell off a little early, and make some money in the deal.  Interesting that most US schools don't ever teach their pupils that there were Swedish and Danish Colonies in The Americas, and that Denmark also had colonies in Africa and India and The East Indies, and that Germany had colonies in Africa and Oceania.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2017, 04:16:03 AM »

Nitpicking - Part II
I wouldn't want to join a "White VGH collectors' Club".  I definitely wouldn't side with them against female members who want to be treated equally. It's a fact that there are significantly less female record collectors than male, not because there are less fans of music among them, but because organised "collecting" is a male thing, because more males tend towards the autistic side that leads to "collectors' syndrome", and males are also more apt to go public with their collecting. It just SEEMS that we are chauvanistic. Most members here WANT more female VGH fans and even record collectors on this forum. I can understand why you feel that VGH record collectors are mainly a male chauvanist group, but, it's just that many of them are very compulsive in their hobby, and not considerate of others, and not socially oriented. I haven't met very many who I liked. I know that I share many characteristics with them, and try to keep them under control.  As far as your being singled out, I'd guess that you and I have more in common than what I have in common with many other posters on this forum.  So, if I WERE prejudiced against any members here (I hope not), you wouldn't be one of them. Please forgive my apparent insensitivity, and know that I mean no one any harm.  And don't take things so personally. Any seemingly rude behaviour on this forum is a LOT more about the poster than an attempt to belittle the person "corrected".  Actually, I wasn't trying to "correct" you as to what a "town" is.  I only brought up "hamlet" to make the joke about it being unkosher.  I try to be funny, and often fail.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2017, 01:42:08 PM »

New World Colonies:

I suppose the old dictum that every rule has its exceptions applies here - Martinique, Guadeloupe, Bermuda, Aruba, etc.

My kids having graduated not too many years ago from a highly ranked public school system in the US, I can assure you that they were not taught too much of anything as concerns world history or geography, let alone which old world nations held which new world territories (with a few exceptions).   
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Shandy
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2017, 02:06:15 PM »

Robb - If I gave the impression that ALL collectors are cretins it was not my attention.  It seems that the mostly white male pastime attracts more than it's share of idiot savants and people who read while moving their lips.  Unfortunately, they have been burned in my brain more than the good guys.  I bonded with lots of collectors who treated me like a little sister and were delighted by my interest and dedication.  I still have the reel-to-reel tapes (converted) of the wish lists they filled for me of 78's I liked that never made it to 45.  When I came here there was not only nitpicking, but the administrators admitted that they were being bombarded by e-mails from members who wanted me off.  Not for anything I did wrong to them, just because "She doesn't belong."  Read: female.  One member who is no longer here, Bradd, even started a topic to rally the members against me (The Chit Chat Here).  Of course the ones that complained behind my back kept their mouths shut, as cowards often do, and when he saw he couldn't get a mob against me, he left on his own.  If everyone here was like him, I wouldn't be here for over seven years.  What I like about the Forum is I can hang with some collectors or former collectors and not have to really be with them, lol.  And the nitpicking was at the beginning and didn't continue.  It just showed that they couldn't find anything wrong with my musical posts at the time (mistakes would come later after LOTS of posting), so they decided to find fault with nonsense.  It was annoying then, but it amuses me now that I have a distance from it.  I never got a bad vibe from you, except for the Robins thing which was a long time ago.  I feel we're cool and I hope you feel the same Cool   
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
JoeC
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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 04:44:19 PM »

New World Colonies:

I suppose the old dictum that every rule has its exceptions applies here - Martinique, Guadeloupe, Bermuda, Aruba, etc.

My kids having graduated not too many years ago from a highly ranked public school system in the US, I can assure you that they were not taught too much of anything as concerns world history or geography, let alone which old world nations held which new world territories (with a few exceptions).   

I guess, since there are so few "colonies" left these days (are there any?), the schools consider studying the subject irrelevant.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 05:44:37 PM »

For reasons not  that clear,  most collectors  by far  , of anything,  are  male.   Coins, stamps,  sports cards, autographs,   records,  memorabilia etc.

Antiques,  and  little  replicas  of animals(pigs,  cows)  to  put on shelves in kitchen  are all I've  ever seen  by females.

Maybe it all started  with  baseball cards.   Dont  know.

Dont think  males have a monopoly  on OCD.    Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Shandy
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« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 10:59:08 PM »

doc - They do from where I'm sitting, lol.  Just like you think females have antiques and miniatures cornered.  All antique collectors I know have been male.  It's just based on my own personal experience, nothing more.  Women collectors of this music tend to hide.  I know of at least one that was on here pretending to be male and no one noticed it but me.  A funny thing happened when I joined, two of the members on the Forum thought I was a male, but a particular male who went by the name of Fosman and is actually Joe Peccararo(sp?).  Two other members who actually know me had to convince them I was who I said I was.
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
doctordoowop
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 11:48:09 PM »

The  only  member  i  may know is  Gino-if it is Lou Rallo. 

I am sure there  has been  no  major psychiatric  study  done--would  not  help sell  drugs-- but why are  99.9%  of collectors  men?   Leave  music out.  just  coins, stamps, movie posters,  etc  etc.

Just an aside--white  men. Even of  black memorabilia.

Except for an isolated Cosby, Lee or Goldberg.
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Shandy
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 12:00:30 AM »

Lou Rallo is bigbeatguy.  Gino is Lou Alfano.  I'm not telling anything they didn't say here publicly.  I've never met a black vinyl collector in my life.  I believe there is one here.  That doesn't mean there aren't any.  Not one came into Times.  If a black person came in they were either talent or management.  Wayne Stierle managed Relic Rack, which was in a predominantly black neighborhood.  He said they NEVER bought anything but the new and hot, except for one black gentleman who was crazy for all things Sinatra.
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
Robb_K
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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 04:19:42 AM »

Lou Rallo is bigbeatguy.  Gino is Lou Alfano.  I'm not telling anything they didn't say here publicly.  I've never met a black vinyl collector in my life.  I believe there is one here.  That doesn't mean there aren't any.  Not one came into Times.  If a black person came in they were either talent or management.  Wayne Stierle managed Relic Rack, which was in a predominantly black neighborhood.  He said they NEVER bought anything but the new and hot, except for one black gentleman who was crazy for all things Sinatra.
I knew several big-time Black record collectors. John Raino from L.A. was one of the major R&B collectors.  He owned a record shop, and his brother was a long-time DJ, who worked at KDIA in Oakland(Black Radio Network and affilated with Memphis' WDIA, and L.A.'s KGFJ).  Norm Presley (of L.A.), and Lonnie Cook (songwriter, producer and record shop owner were others.  I think Lonnie was from Cleveland, but, I knew him in L.A. starting in the mid 1960s. I knew a couple others in Chicagoland and a few in Detroit, as well.  My friend and partner in Airwave Records (L.A.), Ron Outlaw, was also a big record collector (both R&B and Soul) But, I'll admit, that the big-time record collecting publicly visible "community" was mainly "White" and male dominated. Their was a fair amount of female collectors (maybe 20%?), and Black collectors (maybe 5%?).  But, like myself, the women and Blacks (both male and female) kept more to themselves, and out of the public eye.  But, you saw them at thrift stores, record shop bargain bins, Walgreens sales, record fairs and flea markets.  A lot of these people didn't bid on auction records.  Or, IF they did, they used a pseudonym, so nobody would know who they were.
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Shandy
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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 11:19:50 AM »

Robb - Interesting.  I knew they where out there, but where, I didn't know Smiley
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
Robb_K
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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2017, 11:56:29 AM »

Robb - Interesting.  I knew they where out there, but where, I didn't know Smiley
Yeah, Raino's collection was unbelievable.  He had label runs of almost all the catalogue numbers for all the major R&B labels, especially those in The West.  He had a little more like a "normal" decent R&B/VGH/early Soul collection of Midwest, Southern and Eastern labels, but, overall at least 100,000 45s, of all good stuff, and maybe another 50,000 of label run fillers (lots of the latter were pretty okay light R&B, City Blues and Jazz Vocal records).  He had some 78s, and probably 7,000-10,000 LPs of high quality, too.

Lonnie Cook had a great collection, too.  But, he specialised mainly in Soul, but had a lot of late '50s R&B and hit R&B.  He didn't have the rarer old R&B and VGH.  And he went WAYY later in Soul than I do.  He still makes current music, and has liked Soul all the way through. 

Yes, the Black collectors I knew had a group of friends on their own.  They didn't really hang around with the Caucasian big-time collectors.  I knew them because I was a "Ghetto Child". 

I forgot to mention Herman Griffith, who had been a DJ at KGFJ, and one of the owners of Joker Records in L.A., and had connections to Motown's Jobete Music L.A. office, and several of their productions, and was also a large record shop owner, had a great R&B/Soul collection, himself. 

Also, several of the Chicago Black Radio DJs, (WVON, WGES, etc.), and L.A., and Bay Area DJs as well, had pretty amazing R&B/Soul collections, too.  I guess that must have been true all over the US, for BOTH African - American and Caucasian DJs.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2017, 10:34:00 PM »

Pitt  collects  vinyl &  heard  Parris  does.   A guy  from Chicago  named Stallworth  is only other black collector  I knew.

Don't know  Alfano--where  is big beat guy?   Seen no  posts.
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Shandy
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2017, 12:11:34 AM »

Robb - Again, very interesting to know, especially about them keeping to themselves.  They did that real good Grin

doc - He's here, but mostly views.  He's posted 26 times in three years.  He should see this and weigh in, I'm guessing.  If you want, I can e-mail him for you and tell him to drop in here.
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"The small man builds prisons for everyone he meets, but the wise woman ducks under the moon and tosses keys to the beautiful and rowdy prisoners."  Hafiz

"From childhood's hour I have not been as other were - have not seen as others saw - I could not drink(sic) my passions from a common stream.
Robb_K
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2017, 01:59:08 AM »

Pitt  collects  vinyl &  heard  Parris  does.   A guy  from Chicago  named Stallworth  is only other black collector  I knew.
Don't know  Alfano--where  is big beat guy?   Seen no  posts.

Yes, Robert Stallworth.  I know him.  He's got the greatest collection of Chicago and Midwest R&B 78s, and knows more about '40s R&B than anyone.  Scans of his records appearon many discography websites, especially when his copies of records are the only copies known.  He has a fabulous collection.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2017, 07:58:29 PM »

Met him  once.  A  fellow  doctor  along  with our  mutual late friend  Dave Antrell,  and  a friends of  Jeff Stolper.
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