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Author Topic: Negoro Leagues  (Read 1885 times)
doctordoowop
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« on: December 17, 2020, 02:05:01 AM »

What do u BB fans think of MLB accepting ALL Negro league stats?  Gibson  was leader with 236 Hrs,but 4 or 5  have higher lifetime BAs  than Ruth or Williams!     
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Robb_K
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2020, 12:45:23 PM »

What do u BB fans think of MLB accepting ALL Negro league stats?  Gibson  was leader with 236 Hrs,but 4 or 5  have higher lifetime BAs  than Ruth or Williams!     

If anything, using Negro Leagues stats as is (grossly undercounted) would allow comparisons that would have no bearing on what really happened.  It would lead to comparisons that would, in some cases, be unfair to Major League players, but in many, many more (most) cases, it would make The Negro Leagues' players look relatively much less accomplished related to Major League players than when they were comparable, or even significantly better.  Josh Gibson probably hit at least a few hundred more home runs than did Babe Ruth.  But his Negro Leagues' stats only list 236.  So, just on pure statistics, he looks only one-third as good.  In addition, The Negro League teams played a lot of exhibition games (whose opposing teams were on a much lower level of competition).  However, those games' stats weren't counted in the official Negro Leagues' statistics.

The Negro Leagues' highest level leagues, The Negro National League, and Negro American League Teams, standings, and players, owners, umpires, and other officials, and history should be added.  And even their official statistics should be included in The Baseball Hall of Fame, for the historical record.  But their statistics should DEFINITELY NOT be combined with The Official Major League statistics, as, because The Negro Leagues' statistics were so haphazardly kept, which may have a small percentage of non-league and significantly weaker competition games included, but mostly, are grossly undercounted.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2020, 11:48:55 AM »

Robb,

Loved your analysis. Personally I'm definitively unsure what's the best way to go.  Lips sealed

On the one hand, impossible to know how accurate or representative Negro league stats are. On the other, I can certainly see the argument for no longer excluding or hiding the feats of known great performers.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2020, 03:24:53 PM »

Very learned  answer Robb.  Didnt know stats were so haphazard.  But sort of like the NBA accepting all ABA  stats. Erving,Malone, Gerrvin etc.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2020, 04:16:07 PM »

Robb,

Loved your analysis. Personally I'm definitively unsure what's the best way to go.  Lips sealed

On the one hand, impossible to know how accurate or representative Negro league stats are. On the other, I can certainly see the argument for no longer excluding or hiding the feats of known great performers.

My suggestion, to display The Negro Leagues' stats, BUT to NOT combine them in a same assemblage with The Major League stats (so that Top 100 and Top 10 and Top 50 lists of career totals can be compared together), because they are apples and oranges.  It only takes the results of the 1920s-early 1940s barnstorming games in which all stars of The Negro Leagues and Major Leagues played against each other to understand that the best players from both groups were competitive on a similar level, and IF one group was a little better on average, it would have been The Negro Leagur players, rather than The Major Leaguers.

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JoeC
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2020, 05:03:45 PM »

Gibson has been credited with hitting as many as 84 HRs in one season. His Hall of Fame plaque says he hit "almost 800" homers in his 17-year career. These statistics are unverified and include games against amateur and semipro teams.

Based on research of historical accounts performed for the Special Committee on the Negro Leagues, Gibson hit 224 HRs in 2,375 at-bats against top black teams, and 2 home runs in 56 at-bats against white major-league pitchers.

John Holway lists Gibson with the same 224 HRS and a .351 career average. According to Holway, Gibson ranks third all-time in the Negro Leagues in average among players with 2,000+ AB (trailing Jud Wilson by 3 points and John Beckwith by one).

So ... take your pick. Did he hit 224 HRs or "over 800"? Pretty wide disparity.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2020, 06:40:26 PM »

Gibson has been credited with hitting as many as 84 HRs in one season. His Hall of Fame plaque says he hit "almost 800" homers in his 17-year career. These statistics are unverified and include games against amateur and semipro teams.

Based on research of historical accounts performed for the Special Committee on the Negro Leagues, Gibson hit 224 HRs in 2,375 at-bats against top black teams, and 2 home runs in 56 at-bats against white major-league pitchers.

John Holway lists Gibson with the same 224 HRS and a .351 career average. According to Holway, Gibson ranks third all-time in the Negro Leagues in average among players with 2,000+ AB (trailing Jud Wilson by 3 points and John Beckwith by one).

So ... take your pick. Did he hit 224 HRs or "over 800"? Pretty wide disparity.

I would bet he hit somewhere in between the 2 numbers in The Negro Major Leagues, because a significant number of the 800+ were probably hit against lower than Negro Major League competition.  But Gibson probably had a fair amount of Negro Major League HRs lost because those stats have been lost, and, in addition, he probably played a LOT of "exhibition" games against Negro Major League level competition.  Negro league teams played almost every day.  I'd bet he hit significantly less than 714 in official Negro Major League Games.  But, by the same token, I wouldn't be surprised if he hit more HRs per Negro Major League official game AB.
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JoeC
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2020, 08:19:07 PM »

Looks like Josh averaged one HR per every 10.6 AB (against top Negro League competition). 

Babe Ruth averaged one HR per every 11.7 ABs against ML competition. 

It's unfortunate but the Negro League stats are really suspect. The record-keeping just wasn't there.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2020, 09:05:29 PM »

Looks like Josh averaged one HR per every 10.6 AB (against top Negro League competition). 

Babe Ruth averaged one HR per every 11.7 ABs against ML competition. 

It's unfortunate but the Negro League stats are really suspect. The record-keeping just wasn't there.

As I surmised, THAT stat is better for comparison than "career" totals, which are not representative of what Negro League players did over their entire careers. At the top of their games, Babe Ruth and Josh Gibson were fairly close in abilities, and impact on their games.  But their statistical category totals are NOT comparable, because The Negro Leagues' stats were taken haphazardly, and not taken for many games, or have since been lost over the many years since.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2020, 04:07:52 AM »

Not being political-but I do believe further study should be done-if possible.  But prob wont help much.   This is NOT really a sports decision- just  MLB falling in line with Black Lives Matter,and the "woke" philosophy,  IMO.
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bklynmike101
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2020, 01:42:12 PM »

Looks like Josh averaged one HR per every 10.6 AB (against top Negro League competition). 

Babe Ruth averaged one HR per every 11.7 ABs against ML competition. 

It's unfortunate but the Negro League stats are really suspect. The record-keeping just wasn't there.


I suppose we'll never know the precise apples to apples stats for sure. Still, it's pretty clear players like Josh Gibson, Satchell Paige, Cool Papa Bell, and others would have been "primo" players had they been permitted to play in the NL or AL.
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doctordoowop
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2021, 05:03:43 PM »

R:Negro  league--if "Cracker"is/was a racist term,why wast  he Atlanta teamt he"Black  Crackers?"

The Indianapolis  Clowns  would  also be  banned today.
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Robb_K
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2021, 07:07:11 PM »

R:Negro  league--if "Cracker"is/was a racist term,why wast  he Atlanta teamt he"Black  Crackers?"

The Indianapolis  Clowns  would  also be  banned today.
Who said anything about "Negro Leagues" on this thread???  We were talking about The NEGORO leagues here!  (a Bantu league in West Africa.   Grin
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Gino
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2021, 10:51:47 PM »

Good one, Robb!
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"Grease for Peace!!"
Gino
doctordoowop
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2021, 02:40:55 AM »

Who  led  bantoros  in Hrs?
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